Jeff Lathrop – Infectious Enthusiasm for Life in God’s Economy


BourbonRebel Distillers Collection

Jeff started his career in ministry as a campus pastor then transitioned into financial services. Although his job changed, Jeff has never stopped doing ministry. For anyone thinking about how to use their career to make an impact, beyond bringing home a paycheck, this episode is for you.


  • Jeff’s history as an athlete, how he stays fit and his journey to receiving a kidney transplant.


  • Jeff shares how he worked in ministry for 9 years and then transitioned into his career as a financial coach.
  • Teaching people how to gain freedom in their finances and what the rules are to achieve in the money game.


  • Family background
  • Advice on how to balance being a parent and growing a business.   
  • The role transition of a parent from instructing to inspiring and the importance of living life with infectious enthusiasm.
  • The importance of apologizing to your kids and how failure frees us from the tyranny of perfection.  


  • Working out, being outside, reading and travel.

Book Recommendations

Podcast Transcription:

Hey guys, glad you could join us for another episode of core for life, where your host, Matt Mike, and Drew and Ryan and every Thursday were going to bring you a new episode to tackle for key pillars in our lives, be fit be driven, be Noble and be chill and how our faith is a backbone behind each of those pillars, were talking to some awesome gas along the way as well as tackling different topics all in the pursuit of staying accountable with each other and living Our Lives. The way God intended tune in each week to see if there may be something missing in your life. Lets jump it to todays episode. After a quick, add for our sponsor. Have you ever thought about making podcast with thought, probably too hard to get started. Couldnt be further from the truth when you use anchor. First of all, its free. So, check off box number one. It has easy-to-use, creation tools on your browser or your phone, anchor distribute your podcast for you, and you can make money. No matter how many listeners you have, it really is a One-Stop shop for all of your podcast needs. So stop delaying and download the free anchor app or go to Anchor. FM to get started. Welcome to another episode of court for Life podcast. We are drinking tonight. Some Rebel. Its a distillers collection. Its going down pretty well. How do you guys like? It gets great beautiful bottle. Actually. And weve got another guest today. Jeff Lathrop, a good friend of mine, Jeff. And I met probably about 10 years ago through friend. He started his career in Ministry is a campus pastor, but transitioned into financial services and all those job change. Jeff has never stopped doing Ministry. So for anyone out there thinking, hey, how can I use my career to make an impact Beyond just bring home a paycheck, this episode will especially be for you. Geoff? Thanks for doing this man. Really looking forward to it. So if youre familiar with our pillars and I thought we would just run it through, you know, some of the pillars and it really just get to know you better. Yeah it kind of kick it off. I think its worth noting actually. That Mike is not here for the podcast. And you know thats disappointing for all his fans, right. Were going to do our best but we apologize in advance because we miss you. Another little tidbit of trivia. Theres only one other episode where one core for member is not in the episode and were not going to say what it is. But if anybody finds it, we didnt mention it in the episode. But if you find it and can figure it out, hit us up on social media and will give you something good. I like that one other episode Alright, well, lets start off with can beat that pillar. Did you play any sports growing up to I did? So I grew up in New England in the seventies I played soccer, and ran track in basketball in a whole lot of street hockey, which is what we did when I was in the 70 hockey player move to Pennsylvania as a middle schooler There was no organized Youth Sports in north central Pennsylvania in my in my town, but all we did, as kids in New England was play street hockey. Really? Nobody played basketball. We can really even play football. All we did also go along with play, feel like it or not feel lucky street, hockey, you know, whose kids actually, if I know Im dating myself, Yeah, and so then when I move to when I move to North Central Pennsylvania in 1984 I was a seventh-grader so there was organized for it. So I did all the in fact I was pretty small in 7th grade and so I realize really quickly. I actually was introduced to my class to mr. Jacksons math, class in the middle of the day and we all sell in alphabetical order and I sat behind a kid just in front of the kid named Chris Nowak. Now, Chris Nowak in 7th grade was like 6 to make a probably a hundred eighty pounds. All the guys, were just huge. If they werent like big guys, they were tall guys. And so, I realize really quickly that my best chance of survival was I had to get into Athleta. Quickly as possible. So I wrestled 80 lb in 7th grade, and it was a warrior. I mean, I could do push-ups until the cows would come home, you know? I mean it. So I was able to break into that bravado Culture by wrestling and then, of course, back in junior high, you could wrestle in the, in the spring, in the winter and then play basketball in the spring. So we did that. And then once you got the high school, of course it was. Soccer. Basketball track for me? Nice. So yeah. Loved it lived for it. How is, you know, Fitness, what does it look like? Now were kind of you know, as you as you got older got out of sports. What you do now for for Fitness? Whats the right now? In fact, this is a bit of a plug for rogue. I bought a bunch of Rogue bands during covid cuz I had a Planet Fitness membership and how did you find them? Those things were flying off that, they were flying off the shelves. I was able to get them by, not buying them in the package, you know, cuz the packages were missing pieces and parts and so they werent offering them. So I just bit the bullet and bought them all individually to get what I needed. But yeah, you know, when covid hit and we may talk about this a bit later but I had a kidney transplant in 2013 and so for me to be in a gym during covid, probably not the best idea. So I was able to get those being. So Ive been using those bands pretty regularly now for about 6 months, Im absolutely hooked. I love those pants at the strength ropes course. A lot different than doing, free weights and I done freeway to my my whole career. So Im really enjoying those and for the first time in my life, Ive had some back issues in the last six months. So Ive been doing yoga and I think Ive crossed over actually I know about. Im looking forward to getting back into the gym but Im really enjoying doing that right now. Whatever works man look like for for use freeways, havent done a lot of band workouts, whats yet, what is that Dale? Yeah. So you know, its a lot of them, I mean obviously its a resistance movement. You know when youre doing free weights a lot of the resistance is right up front where in a band all the resistance is at the end of the movement and so its just an entirely different feel and I almost think as much as I enjoy lifting weights, free weights in particular, I love the psychology of it getting harder. As you progress through the movement, has found it to be super fun and Ill get home, and Ill jump on my stationary bike and Ill do bands for 20 minutes and Ill be done. I have a dream. Jim, its over. You know, if Im traveling at a big one of my bands with me and I can work out for 20 minutes at a hotel room, and Im done. It has a Simplicity of it, the accessibility of it, Ive just loved, thats great. I havent thought about the travel thats so easy to do. Back in high school, we had a guy that would come in and do workouts all bands. We time to like door frames and run. It was, they were the worst, becoming the band Nazi he was the worst. He put us through the most difficult. So I know that they work, but I wouldnt even know where to start now. Yeah, its been a learning curve for me to, but like I say, with the gym being really off limits for me, As an immunosuppressant in the visual, I think the yeah its been a really really fun experience for me. Ive loved it. Going to that little bit of the procedure. He had to have and, you know, I guess your recovery was was covered. My dad was was diagnosed in the late in the late seventies, and I think is growing up as a kid. I always knew my dad had something. Hes been playing basketball in the basement of the old North Church in Boston. So I grew up in the Boston area and took an elbow to the side and a blood in the urine type of thing. My mom was a nurse, we took him to the hospital, my dad gets diagnosed in the late 70s, with polycystic kidney disease, which is a hereditary condition looking back, not knowing what we know now. Neither my grandparents on my dads side had the condition, so its just a chromosomal aberration for my dad fast-forward to 1999. My dads down at Johns Hopkins, to get a transplant and they say its me. And my younger sister, my younger brother three of us, and they fly us all down to get testing to see. If wed be a good match for my dad, all three of us. Sure is blood type, but were all diagnosed with PKD the same day, so it was a real Downer for my, my dad. And my mom ended up giving my dad a kidney, which back in the late nineties. The match wasnt great. And so they had to keep everything even with a lot of medication, a lot of Prednisone, and, in particular, in, in my dad, my dad just passed. I was a year ago, the 22nd of this month and my dad to the last ten years of his life was just really going from one physical malady to the next. I mean, he just never complain. God. Love him is really proud of him, but that experience ended up getting a second transplant later in his life, which was really, very successful. But the experience of having to manage not a great match for my mom, with a lot of medication, really, really Was hard on my dad, I think so. I was, I was diagnosed in 99 at that point. I knew I was going to need a transplant, you know, I was in my late twenties and still eating three Big Macs at a sitting. So I had to begin to pull my protein back in because, you know, proteins pretty hard on a kidney and and then I started to go on blood pressure medication. Thats typically the first sign that your kidneys are beginning to fail us, that they dont manage your blood pressure quite as well. So Im between 99 and then I was, I was, I want on dialysis and one on the list in the one on dialysis, in 2013, I remember it distinctly because I had a ski trip to Boyne Mountain with my in-laws that I had to get in. Before I went into the hospital to get us a chest Port, which was the weather used to deliver dialysis, they frown on that now. But thats what I had Chosen and I was able to get a good speed and about blowing them out and then get to my catheter the next day. But But I was very, very fortunate. In fact, hes coming over tomorrow. Celebrate New Years with us. A guy that I went to college at Messiah College with and I wasnt really in his friends group but he was friends with some friends of a kind of the edge of each others groups. And I remember him because he was, Wiest play flag football as an intramural Sport. And I used to chase him out of the backfield and he was a big guy. I mean, hes not even daytime, its not real tall but hes probably 2:50 a.m. hes just a juggernaut super hard. You know, his muscles are hard and I used to chase him out of the backfield in long and the old, you know, now what almost twenty years later, he, hes willing to get tested my wifes at dinner and she says that he and his wife. Hey, listen, Jeff, just went on dialysis, for looking for some folks, that would be, that would be O+ and O positive individual can give to anybody, but can only receive from another O positive person and he Sublime O+. And when you give it a shot and So we did the blood work and I can remember, he gave me a call and he said, you wont believe this. He said that the clinic just called and and Im a, Im a four out of six match for you which is very unusual. I mean, were not blood related that we know of it all and that is such a good friend with whom I have so much history, he and I did campus ministry together, he was at Westminster. I was at Clarion and we walked through the death of our best friend together. And then the death of his father in his late fifties, and and now hes giving me a kidney, our lives are just so intertwined at the deepest level and so he gave me a kidney in July of 2013. Incredible story. And it feels like that was not that long ago cuz I remember I remember some of that how has how was the transition afterwards? I was at it was a battle or no, not at all. I mean, I think that I think a lot of it is mindset, you know. And when I say that, I dont want to make light of the fact that some people dont treat his, dont transition out of a major surgery like that or perhaps theyve been sick and its taking a while to recover, right? And thats not my intent. That for me, I was very intent on getting out of the hospital. And so, I was able to get up and out of the hospital, within four days, I was home for two weeks before. I went back to work, on the down low supposed to be a couple of months, but I was able to get back to work and kind of pace myself. And really once I receive that transplant, my life, return to normal, really within four to six weeks. In my life has been completely normal for seven years as a result of that gift in his wife, run Lamp Post Farms, in Columbiana County, which is a have an educational Farm. But they also sell, you know, organic beef and chicken and pork and they do vegetables and all that kind of stuff. And so well go out once or twice a year to those events and well share that story. And and what I didnt share it, was that what he was in church two weeks prior to being asked by my wife, if youd be willing to be tested in the past, was teaching on generosity. And Steve says, to the Lord, sitting in the Pew. Listening to this, this sermon Lord, Im a farmer. I dont have a whole lot of time and I certainly dont have a whole lot of money, but show me how I could be more generous and within two weeks he had an opportunity to do it. Give me goodnight. And thats yeah, I mean you think of ways to be generous thats thats got to be about but its generous as you can be unorthodox generosity with a 426 match like so youre not on all the stuff that your dad had to be on. No. So extent, at least. Yeah. So Im on a handful of pretty common medications, to those of us that have had a transplant. What my levels of those medications are really the lowest that you would have that. I could be on, really nowadays. I understand that they have a process they call. Using the process called plasmapheresis where, if the donor will agree to a bone marrow transplant, at the same time that they do, the the organ transplant, that plasmapheresis will actually scrub your system of your blood type and reconfigure it around the the the, the Merrill thats been donated in many cases before the transplant, right? And theyll basically reset all of the antibodies in the blood typing, all that kind of stuff. So that the the organ that you receive is matched by your new blood type. And your need for medication is substantially reduced or not at all. It doesnt reject the other organs then, apparently, not because of the way in, which theyre able to coax the body into accepting an entirely different. Profile, my wife works is bone marrow, transplant nurse for Leukemia and Lymphoma patients with no reason for it. But thats a big interest. A piece of mine as well too bad. We reject rejection and, and all that kind of stuff that goes into that, and can your body to accept new bone marrow. Its its incredible how complex it is, but its really cool in here to tell ya how you rarely hear that. And usually here, like we have a buddy that has gone through like to know, now, on a 2-1. But yeah, I had a lot of rejection with the first one and finished. Yeah, its a nose that can be a huge battle. Such incredible. That was that good of a match and he said a lot of up and downs too. Like you didnt even if the second one, just yeah. Fighting through it. And thats why I thinking of my, Im always careful when I share my story because I think in comparison, its been very very Simple and anybody thats been in a dialysis center and sat across from other people who are there in many cases for issues, unrelated, to polycystic, kidney disease, like me a diabetes being perhaps the end of the most common boy you come to appreciate the fact that your, whats, your organs doing the most challenging part of receiving the gift. Like that is being constantly aware at least, this is my personality of not being good enough to rid of it right there. So youre constantly asking youre quite the question. Am I doing a good enough job, right? Am I taking good enough care if you will have to know of this gift? I received. And I think that, thats that mean in retrospect. Thats a very small bird. The Bear, right? Like I do, but it does, if its constantly on my mind, you know, and it doesnt surprise me on any talk about be driven, right? To be driven to be healthy and be fit. Its not just not just about me anymore. Its about its really not just about. Steve, my daughter actually by his family and the sacrifices they made for him to give me that gift. So does he ever give you a hard time about it? Like hey, what you doing my kid calls me her second son, and all kinds of fun things like that. And but you know, its TVs me loves Bourbon and he loves beer and so do I. And so, you know, were able to, to coexist. That was a pretty nice. Thats awesome. I think, part of the joy of giving that gift would be just to be able to mess with that person for the rest. I know you in a way, you will never be able to pay you back and I cant wait. Ultimate trump card special. Jeff was transitioning to kind of what you do now in in, in really your career, your career journey. I dont know much about when you were at campus pastor but I love to hear how you going to do that. Even I think you mentioned besides he went to Messiah so kind of what you were thinking. Career-wise Im growing up and then where youre at now. So I end up doing something that I never expected, I would do. And I think thats probably true for a lot of us when I was at Messiah, I was very intent on going into the intelligence community and through my parents. I had some opportunities to interview folks in the CIA and the FBI and kind of get a peek behind the curtain on some of those careers and was pretty stoked about it. And it felt like that was what I wanted to do and then probably my sophomore year of college. I discovered the Navy Seals. And, you know, to that point, you know I was a Spartan in the true sense of the word. I mean Ive been at 3 three-sport athlete. I I thought it was virtuous not to be very emotional, I never cried. I mean the audience. Im sure theyve got me type set already and thats why I was. And its so I was looking for the ultimate Challenge, right? And so I spent the last two years of college really training, networking, and training, to 2, to go into officer candidate school. And then to the skip Wright from OCS directly into into buds training. And so it, my, senior year of college, I come back to school. Its September, and I go over to the the naval Reserve Base in Harrisburg, which if Im not mistaken, I think is an Armory, hold you in missions. And I took a, I took the OCS entrance exam and Ive been a good test taker in high school. I was, you know, the top 2% on the as bad that you take us to the Junior and Ive been told you couldnt study for the exam. So I just showed up and took it. I think I remember, I needed a 50 and I got a 43 on the exam. I was stunned. And really disappointed only to learn later on that my mom and dad praying against this for years, hes not really with a gust in his very much like a prayer and I had to wait 6 months to retake the exam and in that six-month period of time, even though I wasnt involved in campus ministry much while I was at messiah. In fact, the guy that ran the minister didnt like him a whole lot for a lot of different reasons, but I know him well enough that and I was kind of in crisis and so he and I sat down and talked and he said to me, he said, you know, because I think if you really want to challenge, you need to learn the way that Jesus led through weakness and not through strength. And so we had a long conversation about what it would look like to to not do that end and I wasnt entirely convinced but hed gotten my attention, you know? And and then I met a woman. So I met my my my future wife and I fell pretty hard and I thought to myself, well, you know, I had some testing scheduled down in Virginia and I thought willing, I can put that off a couple of months and see if this thing goes anywhere and ended up following her into campus ministry, with an organization called the, the Coalition for Christian Outreach, we now know what is the CCO and ended up spending nine years there. Three years at Clarion and then I came to actually two years at Clarion University in Western Pennsylvania and then end up coming to Akron. Newly married in 96, I worked for a church on the east side of the city was then known as the First Presbyterian Church is now called the. Well, and that the young guy that runs exact Cole was in my wifes Sunday school class when we first arrived in Akron and 96. So super fun store there. But yeah, so I came to campus ministry. I felt like at least initially I could use it as an opportunity to give back some of what I had received when I was in college. So I had some p. When my life, especially when I was studying in DC that head really impacted my life, and I thought, you know, Ive got plenty of time, I can give it three years to a campus ministry, organization and love on Kidz in Carver, jarmon ended up being 9 years. And at the end of nine years, it became pretty clear. Id gone from, you know, being pretty for your spirited and having everything I own fit in my old Bronco 2, for those of you and Im jealous. Ive always wanted for DACA and, you know, being married and having house and two kids, and I got a $500 paycheck. So I left the church in 99 after three years contract, there and my wife Lori and I started a nonprofit organization called compass that basically service the University of Akron with leadership development, especially adventure-based leadership development programming in at the time if you remember back in the in the mid-to-late 90s Ropes course, work and Adventure Decay. She was really big in Corporate America in higher education. Couldnt get enough of it and so I would design these experiences cuz that was kind of my stick, that the ccos. They had a whole group of young professionals. That all they did was outdoor stuff, which was, you know, I love that. And thats why I would design a group games typing event. And I would pitch it to the office of student development and I would give him the charge of a corporate rate than I give him a 50% discount and the money that we be paid to generate that programming for the University, which by anybody thats done Adventure. Its like simple stuff right? In group games Thered be enough money to pay my buddies in the CCO to come out and work for the day and I just put the rest in the nonprofit Kitty and it was the best deal going until the market crashed. After September 11th rights are really that. We really saw the effect of of September 11th and 2002. And a lot of the funding that came to the University of Akron for leadership development, begin to dry up. A lot of the foundations in town, had taken it on the face. And my wife going to give me the hairy eyeball and say, Hey, listen to it, we need to move on and that $500 paycheck in July of 2003 was kind of a in phatic. Its time to move on, so I did. So we transitioned good friend of mine on the street name is Bert. Turner is now a pastor in the Akron area and worked at InfoCision got me a job at InfoCision. So I was writing Scripts for communicators to call and it really wasnt for me. I was wanting to get back into full-time Ministry. I just needed to make more money and so I work there for about a year and then eventually started our financial services business. And so Ive been there now about 18 years Awesome. Very cool. I think you really youve been able to use your job to still have that Ministry. In fact, me talk a little bit about that and I never really wanted to get out of campus ministry. I mean, we just so loved the lifestyle and we love the the life on life. Calling people to be who we felt like the Lord Crittenden be. I do just love that Dynamic. And of course, in the late 90s, early 2000 that took place in some really cool coffee shops. And so we were like all in on that Vibe and opened our home. And we lived in the inner city at the time. So like we need college Deans over to our house and racial wreck was really big and campus ministry in the late nineties. And so we were doing that and we have loved everything about it. Weve grown our kids up in that environment which was great, free babysitting and so We were looking for an opportunity to do campus ministry but we needed to make substantially more money if we were going to save and invest and do some of the things that I talked to a young families about doing now. And and so what I love about financial services is that and looking back I cant actually imagine a better medium for having meaningful conversations. Then being a financial professional you know generally speaking people are inviting me into their life on the referral or the advocacy of a family or friend and Im there just to get to know them You know and of course theyre expecting that. Im going to bring some level of financial expertise or coaching which I love to do that, you know. But for me really this is it. This is just a medium or a platform to invite people to discover themselves. We like to think of what we do is as much about inviting people to discover vocation or this idea of what would it look like for you to have your life in your work, at the same time? What if you werent choosing between the life you want most in your need to pay your bills, you know? And so this opportunity give us a chance to get right down in the weeds with families and to invite them to a conversation that included, you know, Financial coaching and was really so much more than that. And had it not been able to deliver on that. I think we probably would have transitioned out and then something else, but being a part of peoples lives. At that level means that youre kind of in their holy of holies. You know, youre in that small circle of professionals, perhaps our friends that can really speak into their life in a meaningful way and I just absolutely love that space and thats perhaps my gift. Im a capacity Builder. I can I can encourage people you know to be who got screwed in the being, you know, I joke with clients sometimes Ill say, you know, Im Im here to sell you one thing, you know, when they go okay, here it is. Right here to sell you on, you to sell you on yourself, and on your potential and whats possible financially. And when people see that they can win financially, a creates a lot of margin and other areas of their life, which I just think, man, Show me ride this Merry-Go-Round once, right? And you really want to make a difference. And if we can Empower people with the knowledge in the confidence, they need to make sound financial decisions in some respects, almost working ourselves out of a job, not out of the relationship, thats the part we love, but not trying to, you know, engender dependence but Rowlett to invite them to be independent to be fit in free at some point financially. Its just such a rush. I just love it. I bounced out of bed in the morning about that. So what is your official title role? Like what what is it that you do specifically, right? So for reasons of compliance, what I simply say that Im a financial coach have all the necessary certifications and licenses. So when you think of a financial professional, I can bring all of that to the table. A wide range of financial services, that would be typical to most peoples experience. But What I think I identify most with its just the linking arms coming, alongside roping up, if you will with that family with that individual and just making a 20 to 30 year, commitment to get in the butt cross, the finish line to getting them financially fit in free. Have you had clients for like what the hell with the longest that youve had a client for? Like well if youre allowed to answer that question, say that I have, I have one client that I actually brothers, who are third-generation, and were about ready to have a family of their own, and I cant tell you how exciting that is a part of the familys life for, you know, three. We hope for Generations just encouraging people to pay attention to the rules of the money game, you know? And, and inviting them to own that and to celebrate alongside of them. Its just wonderful. LOL. If youre in that fashion beat me in some of that works very similar, similar field and getting to have a lot of those conversations as well. That you like, its surprising so many times for myself to that that someone would be opening up and telling you things that like stuff that we havent talked about on this podcast. Havent talked about with buddies, you know that theyre, theyre telling you, youre youre in that that did remote Circle a lot of time so I can feel their life and whats going on? What are you hiding from us and you that we dont? Yeah I usually assume you guys are doing all right with your money I guess. But yeah you get to hear people tell you theyve made a lifetime of financial bad decisions and then what I mean, youre trying to come along and help him fix that and I think thats what you said with the ministry aspect as well. A lot of times when me and my buddies in that work or talking about what were doing, we really Try to help people fix relationships. You know, thats your job. And when people have broken relationships, like, that comes out in a lot of areas and and, you know, Financial failure from a financial decisions that taking a bad spot, thats a broken relationship with money, A lot of times too. And two to figure out how to have that, right relationship, with money, right relationship, with with others, right relationship with God. Like a lot of them all fall in line together, and thats cool to hear your passion for that. I have a passion for that as well too, and thats, thats exciting to be able to walk alongside people in and get the help. See them? Im at Journeys is awesome. If you guys remember from college, perhaps, are you season your doctors office? The wellness wheel. It looks like a pie, you know? And you know finances when you step back and look at it really pretty small part of the wellness wheel, right? But theres something about money has a gravity all of its own and it punches way above its weight class. And so when people can When financially, or they can overcome, perhaps an understanding a perspective about money that theyve inherited from their parents or close family. When they can win in that Arena, it just freeze them up in so many other areas of their life to have confidence. And so I dont know. I mean, if thats part of what I love about that as I see people just kind of Blossom and fold like a flower in the sun when they realize that mathematically, they can do exactly what they say they want to do which, which is really They come to the realization that they can live their own life, right? And how many of our peers arent really living their own life? Theyre building someone elses goals and dreams are not really living their own life and to set them free financially. And again, give them that knowledge and confidence, they need to take hold of the steering wheel. And even in the absence of their financial coach, to feel confident, they can get themselves and their family across the Finish Line. I dont know. I think thats just something about that. That has real power. That you mentioned that your money punches above its weight class that thing about like Maslows hierarchy of needs, like that young yet and how much weight can sit on the money portion of that, and how that impacts, every, every one of those levels, its pretty crazy to think of the impact that it has in peoples lives. And if its not going, well, then it feels like your entire life is not going well, right? It feels like failure now, you know? And again I mean money and sex, right? Those are the two things that really can crack open a, a relationship. And I know, I asked people sometimes, what if you could put that anxiety that you have about your finances behind you forever? Now, its just like they just stop for a moment. I cant hardly conceive of it because its just so pervasive in their life. And I think thats really what were trying to do. Is we just say the folks listen, let me show you the man. If the math says, you can do it over a given. Of time, then its really just about behavior modification which is good news, right? Because that means, its all in your head. Theres a whole lot of things in life. You cant control what you can control the way you think. And the way you respond to circumstances, have you found it? A lot of people, just maybe you werent taught the correct way to manage money or if they just got into bad habits or like, How does that have you seen that happen? The most like if you could speak to that a little? Yeah, so I definitely think its true that that most people have not. Seen financial principles on paper or an action. So when I say on paper, for example, and I think Im able to talk about this before, the rule of 72, otherwise known as the bankers rule, which essentially is a, is a formula for determining, how often your money will double overtime at a given interest rate. Very, very powerful works for you in In the case of an investment works against you, if you have Consumer Debt in your making only the minimum monthly payment, right? So the difference between sky can basketball IQ, go down the floor, you missed a 3-point shot, the other poison team. Fix the rebound, tosses it down. They hit a three point shot. Like, thats a huge swing swing, right? So it in much the same way. If you dont understand the rules of the money game, whats the probability that youre ever going to win? So things like Rule of 72 teaching, people how to stack that or if youre a Ramsey fan, you know, the whole debt snowball and show a family, what can happen the implications of stacking or in the industry. Sometimes we refer to that as optimization Debt that most families have today, you know, and what does it require for? The math is very clear at that. Its to their advantage to do it. What it requires is a change in the way they think about what they want most from their money over time and so you know when I say the folks listen Im here to sell you on one thing. Its the celluon you I think its a big part of what I do. Is 2 to coax out of them where to get them to talk about, what their dreams are, what they want for themselves, often times what they want for their kids. Cuz its easier to make sacrifices for your kids and sometimes it is for yourself or your house, right? Special, if you and your spouse arent getting along today. So, you know, I think its all about capturing peoples imagination with a vision of them. You know, and when you bring the math to the table to show that its mathematically possible. Now it kind of just remains to be seen as to whether they are disciplined enough to chase that dream and thats probably where I do my most of my work. You know, beyond advising and things is I just keep them on Pace. I just remind him. He listened the last time I was here and we talked you said you wanted to do these things and its going to require this this innocent and why arent you doing it? You know, have you decided, thats not what you want, right? Would you would you prefer where you are now versus where you said, you want to be? And I just try to keep it in front of them, you know, the most encouraging way and I think most people dont have anybody in their life, thats for them. You know, the way that you can be and I just love playing that role. Thats awesome. We talked a lot about accountability in a lot of different areas, such as much on financial accountability late, youre in that position to be able to touch base and give those checkups almost like, you know, we were talking about how theres only certain people that know you a lot more than youd like to admit like a doctor that your family doctor, you go in it. Learn a lot about you really quick your financial advisors, the same thing, and they learn a lot about you, more than some of your friend, bad decisions all your Yap, but that puts you in a really powerful in an awful position to be a huge influence, positive influence to be a person of peace. I think, perhaps the emotion, we deal with the most, its just a shame. You know, its goes Way Beyond will. Im just discouraged that Im where Im at. Its Im just ashamed of where Im at something tells me that I should have done better but in fact most people are playing the cards theyve been dealt. And that isnt to say that adults arent responsible for the decisions they make, they are. But most people just find themselves in financial situations that are advantageous and if you were to track it back and Im Im not a counselor, Im not a psychologist. I dont try to be that at the kitchen table, but if you were to track that back scientifically, the root of a lot of that fear, its really beer. Probably doesnt result in their own set of experiences. Its the fact that mom and dad fought all the time about money after the kids went to bed. And so they have this emotional or Psychological Association with money, thats really, really negative. Thats interesting cuz I feel like thats probably the case for a lot of Americans. A lot of people who can maybe their their parents werent in the best financial situation to date. And they had that experience of their, their parents yelling and money was always a topic that brought forth heated arguments it brought forth hate kind of between their parents that she brought out the worst characteristics so I can see how they be. Some people could easily fall into that kind of perspective on money, then its we need it. We need a lot of it but its going to bring pain. Its going to bring you all these bad situations. And its been harder and harder, I think, if you look back to the early 90s and you look at that, the average raise that, you know, or you would a average that raised over that 20th, 30-year period of time. I mean, most Northeast, Ohio, and families. Havent received an increase in their wages over that 20 to 30 or 40 time. That would outpace inflation. So in fact, it is getting more difficult, the money isnt going as far as think, back think back to the 80. So I was born in 72, a lot of back in the 70s least. This was my experience back in the 70s, my dad worked. My mom was a nurse you work every other weekend at the hospital not because she had to financially but because she wanted to she wanted to have a career and she wanted to raise a family and that was the way that she was able to do both. Once my generation got to all-day kindergarten, a lot of moms went back to work, right? Because why? Because they wanted a career they want to get back in the professional life, which is awesome. And what happened to the average income in the American families, it went up substantially and then the family got used to that income, they were taking vacations and they were buying fancy or cars and nicer homes. And and so what happened? As you get into the 90s and then in the 2000s in the 90s moms working, because while they cant quite make it at that elevated lifestyle. So she works full-time, really, if you look for 2000-2010, Most families, most households to working Partners, okay, working because they have to work to pay the bills. And so, I think theres just been this progression of people are working and working very hard, but it isnt going as far. And I think, when you, when you begin to feel like youre losing the money game that youre not getting head, its easier to say, you know what, let tomorrow, take care of itself. Im going to live for today in till they borrow from tomorrow to live for today. And of course, the math says than those results are disastrous, right? And that just opened Pandoras box of emotions and stresses on relationships and it just kind of Cycles downward from there. Then if theres any blip on the radar after one person loses their job, if theres a pandemic and an 11th like anything that comes up and we know life happens that just go and what about a problem right now. But what a great lesson here of late is not only does it reinforce some of the financial fundamentals that even Dave. Ramsey talks about, we talked about building an emergency fund some Touch the things, but I think it really goes beyond that. Its really I think weve known this because weve watched her parents generation experience it, but that social contract, if you will between employers and employees, just is not what it was for our parents, or grandparents. And frankly, I dont think it will ever be that way again, a lot of that has to do with, you know, what Milton Friedman, talked about where, the job of the corporation is to serve the interests of the shareholders. And so, theres been more and more value. Thats moved in the direction of the shareholder, less, and less has been on the table to benefit or to prosper, the individual worker. And to be quite honest, I think that covid has put a spotlight on that in, many respects him. And I am hopeful that That we can begin to imagine work in a way thats perhaps a bit more equitable. You know, the gig worker, you know, if the Uber driver thats been pushing for benefits and better pay and all those types of things. Like, Im hopeful that people can find vocation, they can have their life and their work at the same time, not have to choose between the two and we can get back to a day and age where the average worker can show up, work hard, be loyal and still have a future. And I think its, you know, it moves all of us to wherever we find ourselves and then whatever vocation or industry to be an advocate for that. And I noticed that the end of the of the interview for tonight, you going to talk a little bit about books and Concepts and so Ill kind of start that talk a little bit about the kind of the economics of mutuality. So, I had a professor in school when I was studying Washington DC, that was at the time, doing some Consulting, and not business Consulting, but more like cultural Consulting to Mars, The worlds largest privately-held candy company in so through no, attend of maybe 15-year period of time, Steve Garber and a couple of folks at Mars really worked through this question of how much is enough? And once weve met our targets, what do we do with the remainder of the profits? And Im not an expert on it, but I know theres been quite a bit written. In fact, I believe its the Syed business school at in Oxford in England, that actually his kind of become the home of that way of thinking about the future of business. Im very excited about it. I think that we have to figure out how we can do. How we can do good work. That makes a difference in the world and to bring back this idea that you can do good and that you can do good and do well at the same time. Like, in Gods economy that has to be possible that drives us to, you know, we believe that we can do right by family or a client and instill do right by ourselves and with that, neither party needs to lose. In fact, both parties have to win to have that Equitable relationship that trust Bill between yourself and the client. And to be pushing to add today to for you to be pushing your client to make those changes. But then youd also benefit from that and it makes sense that have that equity in that relationship. Our belief is always better. If we do right by a family, You know, so we show up and we listen to them, and we bring anything and everything, we can bring to the table, to help them cross. The finish line, that somehow and Gods economy that will bless our efforts. You know what is best for our family thats been true, you know, I mean, weve just chosen to be great, Educators and cheerleaders Encino Cadillac having a good bourbon as we have this conversation, like its its on ramping into relationships and that kind of collegial way, I think thats been primarily responsible for our success. In fact, if weve done it. Right folks. Wonder why did you actually come here? Cuz you dont try to sell me anything. Thats the sign of success. Whats transition to your family? I love this here, a little bit about how you met Lori and then beautiful family that you have today. Im just going to open open a little, your family because I spent my junior year studying in Washington DC, I had some exposure to some people that had had experience with the Coalition, Christian Outreach decisio. Real quick was was a campus ministry organization, that was a response to the explosion of young life in Pittsburgh. In the 1970s, it was called at the time. The Pittsburgh experiment Young Life exploded and as these kids went to the Tri-State, the colleges in the tri-state area There were in a campus Crusade was on campus, Athletes In Action, I think, at the time, but obviously Crusade was big university was really big. And if you have any experience with those two organizations, they have a, they have an approach. The typically have a place on campus where theyre known to be ones in the dorm. When does a fellowship in the CCO kind of evolved out of a desire to bridge. The gap that exists at the time between those two organizations on campus, you know, kind of competing for students and Leadership students and whatnot. And so it became a various, it was kind of a very agrarian movement where college students would sign up with the CCO, for in a year to three-year contract. And basically, just be available on campus to build relationships with students. So, so Im in Washington. I build this relationship with Steve Garver wide mentioned before he could spend some time with a c c. L, I come back to campus for my final year at Messiah. I have a letter in my hand that Ive just taken out of the mailbox there in the comments from Steve Garber that has The CC a letterhead on it. And I happened to go to a promotional table for an ornament for a conference, that the sea seal runs in Pittsburgh, aviary called The Jubilee conference. And my wife is taking peoples names for the conference and I couldnt put my hands on the table. I have this letter in my hand and she looked at the letter and she looked at me. She goes, how do you know anybody related to see Co Im responsible for basically recruiting people to work with us after they graduate and I dont know you from anybody. The way I wanted it. And, you know, over the course of that, final spring semester, I was a little bit in chaos and turmoil as what I was going to do. I was falling in love hard, really the first time and And so I thought well you know how fall is fall? This young woman in and see if I have a shot with her. You know. And I fell in love with the CCO for sure. And we got married in 96. We moved to Akron, how to get a fresh start together. Ive told that story about how we got started and how we transition to the business, but we had both of our kids here. So both my girls were born at City hospital, and my oldest is Brynn. Shes twenty years old and shes born two days ahead of me, so really nice. Birthday present. In 20 years, olds been finishing up here at Kent State, and my youngest Gabrielle is just turned 18. She wants to be a scientist and so were kind of in the process now of hearing back from schools about their their program. And whether shes been accepted kind of a super fun and also a little bit nerve-racking time for her. And so, I hit, you know, my kids are grown and sometimes when I sit at the kitchen, table with a family, and their kids are jumping all over me. Mom and Dad are feeling really bad about it. Im loving it. Okay, I havent been in that space years, right? The valley of diapers, I caught and in fact, that was on an appointment a couple weeks ago, I was training was a teammate of mine and he was doing a great job. And so I was kind of entertainment for the two girls and two girls, we were talking earlier, Matt, the age of your daughters and I just called her the whole time and he was doing the appointment, I was just calling unicorn butthole. So yeah. So you know its gone quick I think you know you sent me some questions about you. No advice to give to guys like you that have young kids. And I guess what I would say and maybe our situation is a little bit different where I had left Corporate America to build a business. And I knew there was going to be a season of push their Lori, and I decided that she would be present with the girls when they were younger, which meant that I was on appointments most evenings for probably ten years so that I could be present for them when they were in middle school. And so, we were able to do that. I mean, I never missed a soccer game. I never missed a play. I never missed a ballet recital cuz I had a lot of flexibility but unlike my dad, I wasnt the dad that read the Bedtime Story. You know what surprised me cuz I had expected to be that person but That was the decision that we made. What I would say is I think looking back on that season while I try not to live with any regrets. I think I very definitely wish that I would have given myself more permission. To place family over building a business. I think its easy for. It was easy for me, not sure if this is true of everyone but it was easy for me to say while Im doing this for the future of my family. And in the process choosing not to be present. So we had a decision to make my daughter was asked to draw a picture of our family. And at the time, I was building a business, not only here in the Akron area, but I was also down in the Ashland Mansfield area and I was building close to my parents out there, Lancaster Pennsylvania. I was on the road a lot and my daughter, my youngest daughter Gabrielle to a picture of her family and her dad wasnt in it. That was really good. So I basically closed down or efforts in Lancaster and started coaching a soccer team to try to recover some of that. And I think, Looking back. If I could say something to myself, I would have said, you need to have it. Amor, 30,000 ft perspective on this because I think the belief that I had at the time was if it was to be, it was up to me. I look back on that. I think it really wasnt ever up to me. Lord and called me to that work. He was going to provide, but of course, I was living on the sharp end of the rope. And, and I really believe that I had to make it happen. So, I justify being away a lot when my kids were young. And so I would say, you know, choose to make that a priority, you know, when you schedule your week, schedule around the things that are most important to your wife, or to your kids, dont miss those events because I missed some of those events, you know, now, Im glad I was present when my kids were teenagers. I think, especially for girls, its important. They have their dad and their life and those moments and I was there and present and you know, I love those years and now that my my daughters are, you know, both young adult site. I just cant tell you every stage of having and Mike These two girls just gets better and better and better better to for rambunctious boys. And I learned this the hard way cuz my daughter is a lot like me and my oldest daughter is a lot like me. And we kind of had some a season when she kind of went off on her own, which if you knew my story, thats kind of what I did. But I think there is a season when dads in particular but parents to eat them together. As a as a partnership in as a team, you switch your roll from instructing to inspiring us. A campus pastor, we see kids come on campus and You know, youd realize there are kids that, you know, grew up in a faith community, and they just came unhinged when they came to campus, right? And so I kind of believe that, you know, by the time your kids, 12 years old, Youve probably given him a whole lot of what you can, give them the things that youve wanted to impart to them verbally. You probably mention to them multiple times, right? They get it. Thats when they start rolling her eyes and like, okay, dad, you know, in really the job is then of your community, the people that youve surrounded your kids with to raise those children and I find that your kids come back to you in their early in their early twenties. You know, because now theyre living life for real paying their own bills and they realize and can identify with the challenges of living their own life in the world, you know? And so, you know, I think Ive worked Ive tried to, to work harder at doing less instruction and realizing that in order for my kids to know what its like to live in the world with great range. I need to live my life in the world with enthusiasm and confidence and a belief that they listen since the death. And resurrection of Jesus were closer to the kingdom of God than weve ever been. Its not this. Im an alien. Just passing through or, you know, its all going to hell in a handbasket. But in fact, were closer to the consummation of the kingdom of God than weve ever been. So at some level things are getting better and better, right? And I think you choose between, its all getting worse or its getting better. You all know that sometimes you have to look hard for the its getting better. As I say, thats a tough sell in the back of her mom, and her dad, living life, with infectious enthusiasm, you know, pursuing our own goals and dreams vocationally for our family life, you know, the sense that, you know, once youre 30 your life doesnt end, which is kind of what my kids think. Now, like your old at thirty in your life, just like settles into this. Grind and its uninspiring and our kids going to learn how to be adults in Gods world. If we dont adult and be excited about it. Sitting here, thats a great perspective like the thought that your wants are once our kids are old. Thats crazy. To think about like older. Like you still have to have that. Can a model of what were trying to do now is kind of model being Godly men to our kids are trying to let them see us reading the Bible that were trying to let them dies having fellowship with other Christian, dudes, and sewed, continuing that model, like, even your ear kids or young adults. And so having that infectious enthusiasm for life and having that Charisma brought about by the love of God and that impact on your life. Its crazy. Think about what kind of lasting impact thats going to have? Well Ill say for my own experience its paid, huge dividends and yet there was probably a 10-year period of time when I was I didnt feel like I was making any Headway in this case with my oldest daughter. So we all have kids that are challenging. 12 kids are easy. My youngest daughter, used to put herself to bed at 7:00 every night. Easy? Okay. But my oldest daughter lot, like me has her own ideas wants to live her own life and so we had a season from about fifth grade to probably her sophomore year in high school when I just didnt feel like I was getting through to her. And so in my fear I felt like I was losing her and sold. My first response was to become more present in kind of an authoritarian type of way. Like, I was going to bend her to my will. I was going to repeat over and over again. All I was doing was driving her away, you know. So when I learn to do in that season was to trust my instincts, I think is a, is it in again? My only experience as a dad, but I think it Real easy to doubt yourself and say, gosh, this is not working. I must be doing something wrong. Even though your dad instinct is saying, no pursue her, or keep keep on keeping on and I did I just decided that I was just going to keep loving her in the best way that I possibly could. And that was to just tell her I love her. And the thing that page huge dividends. Now in my relationship with, with my daughters is that I was by Gods grace when I made a mistake. And I made a ton, you know, Id lose my temper, Id say things. I didnt mean, I mean, thats kind of where I need work. I would always go and apologize and, and I needed to do that because I sent that. I really just messed it up and I needed to, at least try to get it back to level ground. And it got to the point where I could say to my daughter, when I come into your room, and of course, youre giving me the old shark. I write, nobodys home, and youre giving me a lot of attitude that triggers me. And I, How to get on you. I start nagging you about stuff. And whatever the reason Im doing that is not because I dont like you or that Im, its cuz Im afraid, you know, Im afraid that Somethings going to happen to you or youre not going to get the message. And as a result, Im going to be responsible. So it got to the point where Id come in and my daughter would just not with a smile on her face because she know that would make me angry, right, but just like very placidly sit there and listen to me. Go through my thing, just to kind of get it off my chest really just for me. And she would say, to me, I remember this like it was yesterday. She said I understand, youre afraid but its okay. Why it was okay. And Id leave a room and go. Oh, yeah, she is okay but leverage really right? But really, I mean in some respects. She was being. She was giving me permission to be afraid, work through my issues, write my own upbringing and and nowadays, you know, we have a great relationship. I mean, if if if my daughter were a color You know on a wheel somewhere in Vegas. If I could bet on Bren I mean Id be all in that mean we always want to raise our girls to be women of great range. Cuz I think that thats I think thats what the gospel and its reality is to be of the world, you know what to be to be in and press, not the beginning of in the Evangelical sense but to to live in the world to love being in the world to take responsibility to care for the world. And when it comes to courage mean, my daughter is an inspiration to me as a twenty-year-old. So, you know, and and so but we had some moments in that season that were pretty scary and I had to learn to let go of all that. I mean after all we baptize our kids to the Lord. Right. So we either you know its some point in our adult life, we sent you. The Lord is who he says he is or is not And either meant that years and years ago at the baptismal, right? Or I didnt. And so I just have to own my own commitments in and allow the Lord to take care of my kids. And so far, Im pretty happy with the results but Ive been terrified. It was good to hear from other dads perspective that can be scared of times. And Ive seen we see out of out of our kids and me like man, this is Mikey like anybody. But myself now quite enough cuz theyre probably modeling. What? What? Im acting like a lot of times do exactly what you put into them, but its good to hear that. From our perspective, probably that we can trust in that and no like that. Gods faith will need to be praying for my kid to sleep. More than trying to, you know, drive him to do exactly what I wanted to do. So thats its good to hear from from the other side of that coming out. Thats the other lessons that you youve been able to take away ex and I know we can all take a lot out of that. Living with adult kids is wonderful. I love that idea of transparency to like coming in and owning your feelings like where you coming from on a certain topic. Like I feel like even now my kids are super intuitive like my my oldest art 757 year old twins and like they can Intuit things that you I didnt realize. I was feeling and I just being able to have those conversations with them in and owning up to the things that youre feeling will help them. Eventually be able to be like your daughter and express those. Expresso sentence sentiments back to you like that. Im okay. Like I understand your feeling this way, but you dont have to feel that way because heres how Im feeling. And I think having that open relationship that open dialogue is pretty huge, especially for teenagers cuz they just finished shot down, they do because they dont feel like theyre in a Level Playing Field. Like they own the place to stand in the conversation because myself included. In those moments. I felt like, well, Im the parent I need to be right. And in fact, you do. You do know some things about the world in the experiences that your daughters. In this case are having, or could potentially have based on the choices there making that are that have real consequences, right? So you are right, but the delivery mechanism has to be a whole lot more humble and transparent. And to be quite honest, I mean, I just didnt have the maturity in those moments 2. To sit down and have a conversation, right? I would come in load it, you know, and Anna just emotionally loaded and what he has never worked for me. So yeah, Im really glad. Im where I am now. My daughter on the, we talked about really some stuff in the rear-view but nothing in Gods economies wasted right now. So, I think we can take confidence in the fact that they listen failure. Just frees us from the tyranny of perfect. I heard a mountain climber say that one time and I love that, you know, they fall off the face of the rock all the time. But feel your frees us from that tyranny of perfection and I think at a time when you was the dad or the parent, determined that, its right for the relationship. You kind of level it up a little bit. You can you invite them into be? No, not an equal in the sense of how you run your home, but to be an emotional equal, Conversation. And what you find is that all the work youve done, the pouring into them actually shows up because you find them to be incredibly mature. Awesome, young adults, and youre like, it gives you some relief, you know, you like, oh well, okay did something, right? He hit on something as far as you feel like you have to be perfect as a parent billion times and thats a lot of pressure but it also puts pressure on your kids because if youre not willing to, you know, to apologize to tell him that youre the wrong. Like Ive seen, you know, your kid do something and you know, our girls will do something. They feel like Ive disappointed you, you know, Im not perfect. Like no, I want you to know that Im not perfect. Your dad isnt perfect, youre not perfect either. And so having those conversations, just, you know, cuz thats those expectations are unrealistic. You on both sides. Yeah, our kids are in a navigate the world, the highs and the lows in the failure that theyre sure to experience. If that is there. Blueprint. This has all been so good, man. Lets move on to some just some, some, chill fun, fun fun stuff. So what what do you do to unwind? You work hard, obviously your family guy but when you have some time to yourself or youre with your buddies, like what do you what do you enjoy doing? Well, I love to work out. I cant wait for covid-19. I think for me, you know, when I go to the gym, theres something about being in my, in my body, and in my head, I dont even wear earphones because for me, like, I just need to be present with myself. I love to feel my body move. Its a great stress release for me, so I love, I love to work out. I like to move it. I like to be outdoors. I think the older I get, the more, I appreciate the beauty of the creation, and the Towpath for Lori, and I has been such a wonderful gift, you know, I can remember when we starting the business and the kids were young, we go down on a Sunday after Take a long walk on the Towpath and you know, it was like it would just take all the electricity out of our life, this could chill for a moment. So I think for me being being on the Towpath or, you know, being in the mountains, I love being in the Adirondacks. I like being out west. I think that when I married into my wifes family, they were big skiers and scuba divers, and they flew planes and did all the fun stuff that my family never did, you know? So I dont get on the bus and done. Some things with my in-laws that are just off-the-charts, man. I was just kidding the candy store when I first was dating Lori but you know what? Its like to ski. You know, Ive just learned to love to ski. Its such a, you know, its probably as close to Flying as you can get, if youre not a base jumper and so even those with just being active being outside, I love to read. I think that Perhaps, one of the biggest mistakes, I guess. I will call it of the last 20. Some odd years is just believing in this metric that if you just work harder, youll get what you want. And so at the, Im at the expense of thats come for me at the expense of being consistent sometimes and working out, or just giving myself permission to take time to read a book. You know, Ive been so razor-like focus, and of course, the business Community is so all the literature so much about being focused and not necessarily balanced. So Im learning in the season, my career to have more fun, you know, to do my dad died about a year ago. One of the things I really wanted to do with my dad is read history with my dad. My dad was a big genealogist in past a lot of that to us, but I wanted to take a month and take my dad to the family grounds in England and to read history together and just be there. And I miss that opportunity and its in and it was a it was a result. Not, because I didnt have the time or didnt have the resources because I wasnt thinking about Living amor. I dont know if balance is the right word. I think its some level balancing. The Pat. The pan scale of life is a bit of a myth, its more like attention, right? So you go to the gym and you reach down and you pick up that that little handle at the bottom of the machine and you reach up and grab the other one and you pull this end up and you pull this one down and you just got to try to hold it all together, I think. But to have fun along the way. Give yourself permission to take a day off and get outside and be consistent with your exercise invest in yourself. Because if youre not investing in yourself as a dad, youre cheating your relationship with your spouse. Youre not modeling for your kids, a way to have your life and you work. At the same time thats compelling. They see. The dad is a workaholic or this or that. And even though we make up that all of those behaviors are good, right, and true, right? Were providing the reality is that were modeling a way of life and work for a kids, thats frankly, not very sustainable. So Im learning how to have fun. Again, you know, I love to read and read history and travel. Weve been blessed to travel a lot. I think in the so a lot more traveling, more skiing Are there any cool trips on the horizon? Post covid-19. Yeah, so we just I worked in Nantucket for those of you that are familiar with the east coast in the islands off the east coast, I worked in Nantucket in college my freshman year and for the summer is a landscaper and I had always said to my family, I take you to Nantucket. And so I finally took my family than in tuck it before Thanksgiving and it wasnt a whole lot of people there, funny enough. I just read the news yesterday that they had a huge covid outbreak. Pretty sure it wasnt. So, I think the next trip is going to be for in conversation. My daughter, graduates this spring and my mother-in-law takes his taking my oldest daughter out on a trip. When she graduates were talking about combining the graduation trip with a larger family trip and going to Norway. So sweet I have a friend from college whos Norwegian and unlike he just always Raves about Norway and some of the cool stuff that he has. Shown me, that come with me is like, man, I need to get out there. Yeah, its really cool. Its, I mean, we love being from Ohio, but sometimes Ill have an experience like that at, we were blessed, we were in New Zealand, two or three years ago on Christmas and I mean, New Zealand is so beautiful. I mean, it is it is what you hear. It is you can ski and be on the beach in the same day. And then also climb, it is wonderful that people are wonderful. Did you visit the Shire? We did not get to the CIA or unfortunate one for another trip. Right? So yeah, I mean, I think for us to travel is for sure some the way that we and I think it was one of the things we wanted to give her. The girls, I mean, weve never been You know, were not super materialistic people, but we wanted to give them experiences that would allow them to stand on their own two feet in this world. And I think that if you have the ability and certainly it factors into the planning conversation with clients, if you want your kids to travel, it really is very accessible and it just changes your your mindset forever. Which I think in America is really important for our kids to know the world outside of America. Absolutely. Thats really good to mention youre doing a lot of reading. Are there any books that you want to pitch out to our listeners that? Yeah, youre really enjoying. Yeah. So Im reading a book. I have a couple of books. Ive been reading the plate Course, Im going to blank on the titles but the successes Success is Not an Accident by Tommy Newberry. I think for, for anybody thats grown up in an Evangelical Community, Faith Community youll recognize. His prose is his lexicon, but I think its a very practical way to begin to. Think about how do you develop successful habits? Are you lose your consultant, has a very successful business down in the Atlanta area but very accessible. I think very helpful, I think of if you are not as keen on, you know, some of the faith-based language of the Evangelical spin on an unsuccessful, I think the book called Beyond positive thinking, which takes a bit more of a Psychiatric. Certainly not an Evangelical approach necessarily but speaks with a very plain terms about the power of the subconscious mind. I have found it to be riveting and then Im also reading the couple of books from this good professor friend of mine from my years past. Steve Garber, he wrote a book called The visions of vocation and Im really my heart in mind are captivated by this idea of having your life in your work. At the same time, I just thinking Gods economy, its possible. And I think a lot of times Gods people do experience that not because its not possible that because they havent searched for it. You know, were all familiar with Jeremiah 29:11 where it says? I know the plans I have for you, saith the Lord, but a lot of times we we, we fail to read on, and it says, when you seek me and seek me with all of your heart, Ill be found by, you says the Lord. And so I think theres a sense in which The Lord wants us to ask him for more. I think one of my great fears is Im going to Im going to stand before the Lord and hes going to say and of course you wont write, but I wouldnt want him to be justified in saying man, if you only knew what you left on the table, like I dont want to be that guy, right? And so if I need to modify my behavior, if I need to change the way I think, if I need to get uncomfortable so that I can experience Gods goodness. And I can, and I can enjoy everything that he intends for me. And for some important that is to receive it in to pass. It Forward. Only tour kids, but to our community and our church and but, you know, Im Im driven by getting it all off the table and Im not just talking financially, I mean like living life to the fullest because I think it when we when we get to heaven in like a castle and says in the last battle of Cs Lewiss Narnia Chronicles you know, higher up and further in I think its going to get better and better and better. And this experience here at some levels is to foreshadow our time with the Lord for eternity, you know, and I think we just leave too much on the table. So that book visions of vocation is just a really great way to begin to, think really think I think. How we can make decisions that will allow us to live our own lives and to do work that fits us that gives us meaning and purpose that leaves a meaningful. A n, senior community. All of that in Gods economy is possible. We have to seek and I think what a fantastic concept, like, thats thats great and to think about it what what were leaving on the table, but were not asking God for what were not asking for too little in some cases orbit to specifically about one thing or two laser-focused, on some concern that we have and not asking God to move in our lives in his way. So thats thats awesome. Great. Dawson has been a pleasure man. Before we started, you said me and I havent done this before in a little bit nervous, a good part of it may be that Ive been talking about myself the whole time. So I dont know if I have had a great time and I love this concept. I think what a great way at me. People are obviously coming to you because they have an interest in the things that interest you and in a world when theyre so much noise. And its hard to connect to dial into something that really feeds you at your, at your heart and soul level. You know that have a podcast like this, that that your audience can plug into and be inspired by. Wow, what a gift. What a blessing. So Ive been privileged to be a part of it and, you know. I hadnt listened to didnt even know it existed before I was invited. So now Ill be a regular letter but I dont have a t-shirt now. So that makes me extra hard. San Manuel at we owe a lot to our gas and youve been a great guess. Weve had a lot of great gas and it makes this a lot, a lot easier. So forward to doing the easiest. Its in the last. We will probably come over to listen to Adele cell. Thank you so much for your time and thank you so much, man. Glad you could join us for another core for Life podcast. If you like what youre hearing, please share this with a friend and follow us on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter at core for life, or check out our website or that score. Four tune in next Thursday, for another brand new episode. Google for life